Podcast Episode 134: Free Pass

 

Click here to listen to the show.

Swain here. Me and Adrian started chatting after seeing Neal Adams' Batman Odyssey #1 (he saw it, I still haven't) and the idea of free passes came up.

A free pass is when someone, doesn't matter who, gets a pass for what is basically sub par work for them, and you won't call it for what it is. Many a Neal fan were on-line doing just that when Odyssey's preview pages were posted—looking at his current work through Green Lantern/Green Arrow tinted glasses (even though it ain't 1970 anymore).

Don't get me wrong. I give out free passes from time to time myself. I think we all do on some level. But calling something crap doesn't...well...crap all over the great stuff that person did or will do, does it?

Most people who know me know I'm a big music nerd as well as an art nerd. I adore Elton John, Prince, Peter Gabriel and Stevie Wonder. One of my favorite bands to come out in the last 13 years is a Scottish band called Travis.

That said, all the stuff Elton's written for Disney has been utter wackness. Prince—I've not liked much since the symbol album. Peter Gabriel's Up CD was so God awful that I sold it two weeks later (didn't want it in my house and I adore him). Stevie's lowest had to be I Just Called to Say I Love You and Travis' 12 Memories disc gave me amnesia.

I still love them all for their past work, but give 'em a pass for the nonsense they're doing today.

Bringing it back to comics, it doesn't take any of the greatness away from Frank Miller's Dark Knight, Born Again or Batman Year One to say Dark Knight Strikes Again and The Spirit sucked. And they did. 

The conversation between Dwight, Adrian and I also veered off into free passes for comics coming out late as hell, outrageous original art prices, lack of professionalism and common courtesy. We went there.

So many fans will look the other way if it's their favorite guy or gal and act like they're not being mistreated—when they really are. That's bullsh*t.

Listen in and see what you think. Our goal wasn't to dump on folks just for the sake of dumping. It was to encourage us as fans to be more honest. If it's great, hey, let's celebrate it. If it's just okay or bad...let's call it for what it is.

**If you're squeamish or easily pissed off, we must warn you—this audio is disturbing. Names have not been changed to protect the innocent (ha).

Check for the Jack Kirby birthday Easter egg at the very end. That was fun.

And Dwight would like it on the record that he dug Kneel...ummm, Neal's cover for Batman Odyssey #1.

Comments

[sketch]

Great show guys!

I was wondering, would it be possible for you to make a list of awesome comics for a beginning collector? You all are so knowledgeable about good books that your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!

[Triano1000]

Hey fellas, love the show--enjoy the candor, the observation-based critique and humorous acidity

I'd like the opportunity to address a few matters of fact, or at the very least elements of contention if I might:

1) In Frank Miller's 'Ronin,' the Sidebar cats seemed to agree (despite disagreements on whether the story worked) that it was a time travel story, in which an ancient disgraced samurai transports himself into the future to battle Agat, a plague upon mankind

This interpretation is literal, and only partly accurate--upon further examination, I believe it will become apparent that the nature of the Ronin character is not physical, but mental--he is a construct from whole cloth, created by the Billy character as escape from the futuristic prison of living plastic--a subjective reality superimposed on the proper world of the future (in other words, there is no swordsman, no demon, no ancient mystical Japan--Billy is interested in the mythology of the place and time, and uses that as inspiration for his escapism brought to life and grafted onto the NYC of the present); thus all Japanese elements in the story exist as fiction within fiction, and there is no question that this is the secret of Ronin, and that Frank's genius (yes, I dig this story) is not only cemented as a result of his distinctly Western interpretation of Eastern tropes, but also in his craftsmanship of character in a confusing yet ultimately penetrable narrative--I love Ronin for these reasons, beyond any 'mystical Freaky Friday' comparisons, and I hope you will too :)

2) Secondly, Frank's deal in DK2 drew him back to that story and to DC not only because of the page-rate (which may or may not have worked out to a million +), but also because of the royalties deal he negotiated--on DKR it was unprecedented, Frank's contract stipulated that he would receive half of the royalties based on sales
On DK2, Frank negotiated FULL royalties--any and all sales above a certain number (60,000 roundabout, nowadays) went directly into Frank's pocket (and his alcohol habit, which is documented and beyond hearsay at this point)
What is not fact but widely associated with truth is the nature of Frank's split with long-time collaborator and wife Lynn Varley, who left Frank directly after DK2 hit as a result of Frank's drinking (again, allegedly)

3) On the subject of industry perpetuation of blown deadlines, superstar cover artistry, and late commissions: In the future it might be beneficial to describe in each circumstance what one's definition of 'industry' is--do you mean editors, publishers, news services like CBR

The reason I would ask for such distinction is because in regard to the power set in comics, editors have lost but all their pull to fans--folks who buy, read, and attend conventions to follow a certain creator or creative team hold the true lion's share of power

So if you guys don't want to pay $500 for a con sketch, I would say simply: don't, because if sales drop that price will change and quite quickly--in this way, there is no greater cause and effect in the way that fans can change their relationship to the material, and to the 'stars' who create it

That's all!

If I've gotten on a soapbox, I apologize; just needed to express ideas from a fledgling creator that may or may not be entirely valid

Again, I very much dig these episodes--thanks fellas!

Cheers,

Matt Triano
triano1000@gmail(dot)com
matttriano(dot)com

(RE: Matt...nuff said! Thanks for the time and thought, sir. They're most appreciated. - S)

[Robert Johnson]

Hard honest critiques have made me the artist that I am. We can only be so lucky to have friends and colleagues that will tell us the honest truth about our work, it is one of the highest respects you can pay an artist(or at least one of the biggest favors). It makes people work harder and push their limits, and in the end hopefully makes us make the best work possible.

[0neiromancer]

You should give 'UP' another try. Sure there's a couple of sub-par tracks, but Grieve and Signal to Noise I think are among his best tracks ever. The only track that really rubs me the wrong way is Barry Williams Show.

Anywho, that aside, interesting show. I think there's a strange change in the air industry wide.

(RE: Thanks for the encouragement, sir. Apart from the songs not being all that memorable, most especially The Barry Williams Show (uggh), it was the production. Peter's records have always been very natural sounding. Very human and raw. He obviously gave in to using a music sequencing program called Pro Tools and you could just hear it. Pro Tools is the musical equivalent of Photoshop.

They way he used PT on UP, it just came off uber-mechanical and polished. Not at all like his previous albums. His last great opus for me was Us. Love to Be Loved, Blood of Eden, Secret World...those songs are my religion, dude. - S)

[M.Chavez Art]

great show guys. as always, very entertaining.

[Kyle Bice]

I know you guys are probably getting a lot of crap for being honest and telling your real opinions but I think it's good to be true to yourself.
I think it's good for us if we can all argue about what we like and don't like or argue about what each person takes away from each comic or graphic novel we read. I think an open and honest discussion (like the one you just had) is what some creators need. We see way too much big-headedness going on, on Facebook, Twitter, Deviantart, etc. I think that same big-head nonsense is what eventually leads to creators becoming lazy or complacent and the fans becoming dissatisfied with the industry.
Anyway, thanks for being real. I appreciate it and I'm sure many others do too.
Cheers fellas!

(RE: Thanks for the comment, Kyle, and great to hear from you! Been a minute since Chicago. It's healthy for everybody to be honest about the good and the bad. Hell, you can't love everything. Everyone who enjoys this podcast doesn't love every show, case in point (ha). And we don't expect them to either. The roundtable stuff gives the three of us a chance to let our hair down and emote. This one was fun in that way. Anyways, hope you're well, man. We had a table at Dragon*Con here a few weekends ago and whatdoyaknow...I got the Crud. Yaaay! - S)

[E. Peterman]

Really, really good episode — and thought-provoking. I liken the Free Pass situation to a comment I read about Sting; something along the lines of, "He had about 25 great songs in him. The problem is that he's on song 178." I guess every creator peaks, and it's just a matter of how steep the dropoff is afterward.

[Zuma]

okay, so you got me looking to see what Neal did. and it's awesome work. great to see him change up, and for the better. in a career spanning nearly 50 years, that's phenomenal.

he's paying more detailed attention to clothing wrinkles, hard surface textures, and such. he's doing extreme closeups with backgrounds even, using near fish-eyed focus perspective. the drafting aspect in general looks better, more informed. meanwhile he's loosened up the sphincter-tight drawing style enough to actually convey, more kubert-like, the passion and emotion he once only illustrated, albeit superbly.

way cool.
one massively major quibble though:
that ain't Batman. not with a gun in his hand. who started that? frank miller?

[John Robinson]

Another great show, glad to hear all 3 siblings speak their minds but let me be the devils advocate for a minute on a couple points...

I believe John Cassaday was unfairly blamed for the Planetary delays. Johns star really shinned when he got the Planetary gig, but it got to a point where he couldn't just sit around waiting for a script that was never coming to show up, he HAD to take some other work since the writer was not producing in a timely manner. While it's terrific to land the high profile gig with the hot writer, it's not so great when said writer (see JMS) doesn't turn the scripts in.

Artists charging, seemingly outrageous prices for sketches. It's easy to think it's all ego & greed driven and get irritated at this practice as we're all genuine fans who simply want to own a small sample of someones work we admire -- SADLY many of these artists got repeatedly burned by the 'fan' (scumbag profiteer) who begged said artists to draw him a sketch of the Black Cat for $20 bucks for his sick 9 year old boy - only to see it pop up on eBay and command $300+. You can only handle being taken advantage of for so long until you're forced to simply say no more. It boils down to what Matt Triano said above, just don't pay it.

On a side note I remember atttending an early Chicago Comic-Con (back when it was actually in Chicago~ 1981?) and Bill Sienkiwicz had just hit the scene with Moon Knight (I think issue #8 had just come out, something very early on) ~ he'd evidently pre-made a bunch of Moon Knight sketches (if memory serves they were inked illustrations) on 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of paper - taped them to a support beam in front of his table and had the outrageous gall to be charging $10 a pop! I couldn't get over how much this newcomer thought of himself to demand such a price.

just saying-

John Robinson
www.GrahamCrackers.com

(RE: John, gracias amigo for posting. You are the sponsor supreme.

Blame all the way around for Planetary, although a lot less for Cassaday if what you say is true. The book was great, but not 10 years great. Sorry.

As to the devil's advocacy...'preciate the perspective. Duly noted.

Ten bucks?? Ten??! LOL! This was back when gas was $.49 a gallon, right?

S)

[Jason Wood]

Sirs!

You know I consistently love your show and think it's the best artist-centric interview show in the cosmos. But when y'all take a quick minute to riff about things just sitting around the porch sipping tea, I really enjoy it. This episode reminded me of a Sidebar-flavored ep of our show, in all the best ways!

The free pass discussion? TRUTH. I don't know that I would've included NA in as an example, but Chaykin? I always say there is good Chaykin and bad Chaykin, and we've seen a LOT of bad Chaykin lately. Another cat that hurts me visually now more than not, but gets a pass from many = Kyle Baker. I'm sorry, but seeing his Hawkman and Deadpool rendered in poser is an affront to his brilliance in times past. On the writing tip, no one personifies this more than Warren Ellis. He PHONES IN his for-hire stuff at the Big 2 usually, yet is spot on (most of the time) doing his own thing.

Keep on keepin' on peoples,

Wood

(RE: Woooooooooood, thanks for writing and checking us out. You're a beautiful man, sir.

I have another buddy who says that same thing about Warren. And oddly enough, my ish by him tends to be creator-owned stuff (Fell, Planetary, no Nextwave). Go figger.

Keep on sippin' at 11 O'Clock, bruh, we likey.

S)

[Michel Fiffe]

I heard this episode when it came out but I failed to comment on it and eventually forgot. Your recent 2010 round up reminded me.

What do you guys think about David Mazucchelli's "Asterios Polyp"? It was never outright defined in your discussion, but I got the impression that you guys didn't think anything of it, probably in comparison to his Miller collaborations.

Although those DD and Batman stories are some of my favorite comics, and he one of the greatest cartoonists of our time, I think "Asterios" is a step up and beyond his previous works. It really utilizes his strengths while raising the bar for Comics Art. Sure, I'm married to "Year One", but Mazzucchelli isn't... and that's a good thing. I really think he's expanded as an artist (and writer) and I'm curious what your take on all this is.

(RE: Okay, here's the deal. I LOVE Dave, but never read AP. I got overwhelmed with glowing comments about it from everybody and never got to it. However, I posted on Facebook recently that I was curious and now think I'm ready. So I grabbed a copy the other day and plan to jump in next week. I'll send you an email with my review.

And yes, you're right. While Batman Year One is my religion, I find Mazzucchelli to be extrememly brave and adventurous with this form. Rubber Blanket was just a prelude, I suppose. He really is one of the grest ones.

Batman Annual #8...those two pages knocked me completely on my ass. I can't put into words how thrown I was. A gift we can never accurately show our gratitude for. - S)